A Thought about water changes "devils advocate" if you will

[Buddha_Red]

I have heard various people talk about water changes and a question keeps hitting me in the face.

Ok for pretend lets do this

My tank handles all ammonia perfectly, and all other water rages are perfect. Why would i want to remove 25% of that for possibly dangerous water? How come we do not top off instead of full changes like we do?

A water change is always suggested as a cure for something, what if there is no problem? what is removed from the water that's bad if everything is fine? Plants and carbon really polish the water pretty good. I run the incoming water with a mess bag over the outlet to protect from any chlorine that is there. I call it a pretreatment. (i use plant tabs instead of liquid ferts now.

If phosphates are not a problem, the simple question. why change perfectly good water?

Ok that was for pretend purposes only. i am not telling everyone to stop changing the water. This is intended to be a scientific question.


@@excluding sybstrate cleaning, i use an air vac.@@

[crazyred]

The only thing that comes to my mind on this one is that the water parameters might be good, but sometimes, when there's a problem in the tank, the oxygen level goes down. By doing a water change, you trade water with less O2 in it for fresh water that you know is well sturated with O2. Just my first thought, could be way off base.........y'all pipe up if my theory sucks!

[Buddha_Red]

To remove the CO2 and replenish the O2, surface turbulence is required. This turbulence may be from an air pump, a power head directed towards the water surface, or water falling through a wet/dry filter. That's a good point though, o2 and c02 release are major details of water chemistry.

I called one vet, and the nurse said she never changes her water, just tops it off. She just changes the carbon out monthly. She has 8 tanks and is very into aquariums. She knows her stuff. I am trying to find a scientific reason why no water changes could be possible.

I appreciate the message, keep em coming. I will research every idea, this is how i test my knowledge and ideas for flaws.

[crazyred]

I guess different things work for different people. I've heard it is a bad idea just to "top off" evaporated water, because when water evaporates it leaves behind some not so good stuff (that wouldn't show up on a standard water qual. test) and that by just adding water the bad stuff stays behind and builds up. I also assume that if water changes aren't performed at least once in a while nitrates will start to build up (not quite as fast if there are plants). Water changes also help get rid of fishy poop and uneaten food that is not taken care of by the biological filter.

[MalawiCichlidBreeder]

By bad stuff you mean minerals. The harder the water is the more minerals are left behind from evaporations. You want to have a decent equilibrium thus you need to take some of the supersaturated water remaining and replace it with more diluted water.

It is also important to realize that there are a lot more things in there than what we normally talk about which cannot be detected. I don't have more time to get into this now but when I have mroe time I will get in more depth if others haven't.

Josh

[AngelMom]

OK - here's one of the biggest reasons..............

Fish, like all creatures that are carbon based, need certain things to live. We all know about food, oxygen, no ammonia, no nitrites and low nitrates. But there are other things your water provides them.....minerals and trace elements (think vitamins for humans). If you never change your water, eventually your fish will completely deplete the trace elements in the tank and those minerals (that are good to a point) will build up and concentrate. Some may even become toxic.......what happens to a person who gets too much potassium? For those that aren't into chemistry......the answer is, you get a heart attack. Granted, it may take a while, maybe even years, but the damage will be done at some point.

So, we need to change our fishes water. Maybe not every week (depends on the size of the tank.....smaller tanks need more water changes) but certainly on a regular basis and at least every week or two to keep the good stuff in the tank and to get some of the bad stuff out. Yeah, you can get trace elements for fish to add to the water, but you still have the mineral concentration problem. I suppose you could take it to the extreme and say that eventually (after many, many years) those minerals will fill the tank and leave no room for water at all. I mean, jeez, that's what that icky crusty stuff is that forms on the top of the tank......minerals.

[Buddha_Red]

this makes more sense than no water changes. I couldnt figure out how its done, but the slow damage would be something that happens.

I have been giving my 55g a weekly 25%. I could cut it back, but since its a python now a days, water changes arent such a big deal. I just love thinking outside the box and questioning what i believe in. I plan to continue water changes no matter what the answer was. I really am interested in the chemical reasons. Anyone that has info please speak up. I want to understand water chemistry and this is a valuable resource.

With all this said, I am running carbon in my filters just in case. My plants are fine, i am making sure they get ferts and 12 hours 2 wpg. The carbon is just there for any verations in my local watter supply. I prefilter it then put it in the tank. i do not chlorintes (whatever its callled) in my tank. I hope i am not striping good nutrients, that flourish doesnt provide.If you filter with carbon before you fill the tank, are you doing more harm than good? dont worry about plants, i make up for that.

[MalawiCichlidBreeder]

How about we get everyone to scrape off those minerals from our tanks, send them to my address and then I will make little power mineral bars out of them to sell through health stores.

Sounds like a good idea to me... anyone with me?

No?

:HP

[crazyred]

Might could be used to make your own version of RO Right! :D

[AngelMom]

ROTFLMAO!!! :LOL Sure.....long as I don't have to eat one! Thanks Josh......I needed a laugh about now!

Oh, Buddha.....I quit using carbon (and all other chemical media except the phosphate/silicate remover) in all my filters. Read an article somewhere that said the carbon will take out the trace elements that the plants use. Plants have been doing much better in the last month. Just FYI. :cool:

[DevinJM]

I have no plants and haven't use carbon in atleast 4 months and have no reasoning to. The tank isn't overstocked and nothing is dying so there is no smell (an indicator of good water) and there is no color to the water. The only time I used carbon is if there is coloring in the water from the wood I had in the tank before the labs, and from meds, which I havn't used in a long time. If its not broken, why fix it? Although I am thinking of making a denitrator cause I cant have plants.

[lloyd berg]

i also do not use carbon in any of my tanks.
i do continue to do water changes to replenish oxygen,source minerals and rid excess nitrates.

[Buddha_Red]

How about we get everyone to scrape off those minerals from our tanks, send them to my address and then I will make little power mineral bars out of them to sell through health stores.

Sounds like a good idea to me... anyone with me?

No?

:HP


Sure, is it low carb, i could always use the extra protein =? ROFL

I have terrible water where i live. I live smack dab in the middle of a city. The water has a smell to it, and the chlorine is heavy, i won't drink the water here unless its filtered, imagine how those chemicals effect us.. ewww next topic

If there are chemicals i CAN detect, there is no telling what else is in there. I haven't seen a report breakdown YET, i suspect pestisides, desel reside, oil, gas and whatever else the jerks dump into the water here. I actually personally saw the ship channel water catch on fire!!

If chemicals are burning off water it means YOU DIDNT DO SOMETHING RIGHT FELLAS!!, Chemical saftey my butt.

Galveston is down right nasty with its brown water. I need like a bubble boy sphere to go into the water in Galveston.

Saving the environment sadly isn't something 99% of the citizens care about here in Pasadena's Texas i do my part but the problem is huge, it's so casual to throw out trash from a car. sad....
SO that's why i use carbon. My plants do not seem affected because i compensate with substrate nutrients. So i guess its just a matter of how clean do i really want my water to be. I will get a report from the water dept and i can submit a sample of water for independant analysis from the university. Studesnts will analize everything for the practice and the teacher verifies it.That would scientifically prove if I'm being paranoid or its bad water.I have plenty of real plants still growing away,

I just love being the "devils advocate" in debates. Love, love love it!

The information is really helping my water chemistry interests.


Thanks for playing along again gang, I learned alot as always, You know me and questions :rolleyes:

[crazyred]

I'm with you B_R, this water from the Rio Grande River is pitiful....might give your water a run for the money(we have pollution from two countries that don't give a rat's a** about clean water). I posted a link somewhere in a previous post showing my water qual. report and it was most suspicious----a few members here noticed some serious discrepancies :SK . I don't trust it, so I run carbon. It's also good for removing leftover meds. My plants don't seem to mind.

[Buddha_Red]

add a plant tab every few months and your plants will grow and not turn yellow. The carbon tends to remove so much that the plants need food. I make sure they get it, and i want an environment that is healthy for my fish but anti disease, parasites and what the heck else that's in our hobby.

I am worried about the mineral deposits that are left in our tanks, that doesn't seem right if you have so much it cakes the glass, I know its a part of aquariums but since i was a boy i have the "no way" bug. I have to prove everything to myself. I really want to understand this topic big time.

I provide 100% nutritional foods to my fish, so i am not worried about them missing their nutrients, but i may not know some interaction with water nutrients and overall fish health. I know natures water isn't perfectly clean, but i want mine to be as best as i can.

Replies and debate arguments welcome and appreciated. When we question an idea, we have to fill the hole with what we know to be true about the idea. Thanks for being there to answer the ramblings of Buddha Red once again.

*Hugs*

[seanleila]

i hear ya on that on crazyred. i live in el paso and have to look at the pitiful excuse for a river the rio Grande is. our tap water is horrible as well. very chlorinated, very hard. i use carbon as well and i don't think i could do without them. i don't even drink the water.

[oscarbartoni]

Even though the biological filters are good they cannot break down everything to good things. I like to tell people that fish use the bathroom in the tankand the only way to "flust the toilet" is to do a water cahnge. When peopl,e say that their water is clear I tell them that sulfuric acid is clesr too but I wouldnot drink from it. So why do yo wish for yor fish to drind or ligve in something that you might be bale to se through but not healthy. Fish can gradually adapt to less than healthy water but then if you put another fish in from healthy water the new fish is likely to die or at least have its resistance lowered and be easier to come dcown with any bad bacteria that may be in the tank. Even the fish taht are in the established tank have their resistance lowered by living in less than good conditions.

[crazyred]

Oh yeah, you are on the same river, just north and west a piece(1000 miles)......howdy neighbor. I'm from Big Spring. Do you know where that is? I know all about the crappy water in West Texas. You'd have to have some kinda death wish to drink it. They do everything short of adding bleach to that RG river water(hell, they might even do that...who knows?) to make it "safe to drink"---yeah right....as if. RO water is 25 cents a gallon at water stations all over town. No one here drinks the water.....it's not safe, I don't care what the city says (and I work for the city :eek: not in the water department though)

How's things up in El Paso? I'm 15 miles north of Brownsville in Harlingen. The complete opposite end of the Rio Grande from ya. By the time we get the water here it's full of runoff from all the farms and ranches in between....not to mention what they probably dump into it on the other side......horrible!

[Buddha_Red]

Even though the biological filters are good they cannot break down everything to good things. I like to tell people that fish use the bathroom in the tankand the only way to "flust the toilet" is to do a water cahnge. When peopl,e say that their water is clear I tell them that sulfuric acid is clesr too but I wouldnot drink from it. So why do yo wish for yor fish to drind or ligve in something that you might be bale to se through but not healthy. Fish can gradually adapt to less than healthy water but then if you put another fish in from healthy water the new fish is likely to die or at least have its resistance lowered and be easier to come dcown with any bad bacteria that may be in the tank. Even the fish taht are in the established tank have their resistance lowered by living in less than good conditions.

That's a good read. thank you for posting that. :AP

[lloyd berg]

reading through this post makes me wonder why we are so driven to protect our fishes environment, while we 'live' where we do, and expose ourselves to so much stank. perhaps the most realistic tank set up should have at least a few diseases and premature deaths inside.
what i see is acid rain. while in 'reality' my god is merely trying to adjusting the ph for me.

[Jenn]

Some people say that Ich and other fish sickness live naturally in the tank water, healthy fish just aren't suseptable. Is it possible that if you don't change the water these 'pathogens--if you will' would grow to huge numbers? There are tons of little living things in that water, good and bad. But how about in HUGE numbers? Really have no idea--just a shot in the dark. My fish act different after a water change, and my water is always ace--sump=big filters. I wondered about this too as I'm always changing water in one of the tanks, think I'm growing gills :eek:

[crazyred]

My fish get more "peppy" after a water change. They will often play & swim in the current of the water that I'm adding out of the pitcher. :) My water parameters are perfect, but they love the new water I add. I have to restrain myself form doing water changes too often!

[AngelMom]

Ich does not live in the water (it needs a host to survive) and most tap water won't have any serious pathogens in it. Most likely the fish are reacting to either a change in the temp, pH or hardness because what you are putting in is different than that in the tank.

[DevinJM]

I want to argue about the whole, add new water add more oxygen thing. If you have a properly airated tank then there should be no issue there. I have the output to my fluval at water level so it disturbes majorly and adds lot of airation and on top of that I have a 13" airstone along one side too.

[Buddha_Red]

i agree, mine and your filters provide a lot of turblence at the top which provides o2.


The buildup pf menerials or chemicals we cant test for are the data i really need. I am trusting my water les and less. i am not talking about chlorine, i am worried about chemicals that we dont know about.

Oh and Lloyd, I know the world is a dirty place with uncaring people, but i am one that picks up trash at my apartment complex. I cannot put the negitive element of our society on my tank.

If i could control the world like i do my tank. i would certainly be using the hugest filter i could. I accept the lifeforms in my tank as my responsibilty, My beliefs say i must provide them with the best possible care. And preventing senseless deaths is important. Sure some die, but i do not and will not accept parasites and disease as normal life. I know its kind of like nature, but since we have fish in inclosed enviroments we are in charge of the water chemistry.

My own opinion, thanks gang

[oscarbartoni]

Most people have a choise in where and how they live but the fish and other animals do not have a choise in where and how they live so it is up to us to try and see that they get as good a treatment as we can give to them. We have the ability to get out of the way of a car or truck but the fish might not have the ability to get out of the way of bacteria or ick like we can of our barriers in life. To the animals in out care we are like a "god" to them where we have the ability to give them a happy and long life or to cut it short. I perfer to try and have my animals live a long and happy live if I can.