kuli loach problem?

[aquak]

I have three kuli loaches that usually behave normally. For a few days one or two of them have been swimming constantly up and down the sides of the tank, seemingly exhausting themselves since after a while one of them swims up and then falls to the bottom. I read in an older aquarium book that this means something is wrong with the water but I have checked temperature, nitrites, amonium, and ph (7.2) and nothing seems wrong. Today the otocinclus seem to be more active than usual also. I also have angels, guppies, rams, and a gourami that all seem fine. The clown loach has been more active but in a more normal way. Do I have a problem?

[maddmatt]

I have the same problem with my clown loach sits vertacle in the tank ,, called alot of aquarium professionals brought in multiple water samples,,asked them if i could bring in the fish to them for an evaluation wich they will not due,,,as per my explanation they only advice i have recieved is that the fish is extremelly stessed out,,i have added 6 gouramies but this has occured prior to these fish were intoduced. I am now trying to calm him down if this is what his sympome is by turning off the light at 9:00pm instead of 10:00pm,,and i have my wife turn it on at 9:00am instead of 7:00am,,,,,,If you hear of anything else that might work please inform me,,my e-mail address is mattbrunet@juno.com,,I will also let you know if thid suggestion of light depletion works.

[vjvl51]

Do your fish go to the surface of the water or just part way up? If they go to the surface, it is frequently a sign that they are not getting enough oxygen. You then increase the turnover of the surface water to ensure a greater oxygen content in the tank. I don't think this is too probable as more fish would be showing the same symptom. Both of you have Labyrinth fishes which need to breath air anyhow so it might not be noticeable.

Many people add a small amount of salt to their fresh water tank. I've been told it helps control diseases. Some fresh water fish are extremely sensitive to this salt. I killed a tricolour shark doing this and my shark had the same symptoms as you describe - constant up and down motion. I mention that as a possibility.

I also assume that you have done a couple of partial water changes and cleaned your filters (by clean, I mean rinsed out and media replaced, if necessary). I would replace the carbon at this time. Carbon will absorb many chemicals in the water. Just be sure that you allow the carbon to sit in water for a few minutes before you put it in the filter. If a chemical has gotten out of balance in your tank, this is one way to bring things back to normal.

Another possiblity is that since Coolie Loaches are night feeders, they are not getting enough to eat and are therefore active during the day looking for food.

Here is a web site listing problems with fish a suggested cures. Abnormal swimming is 3/4 of the way down. It might give you some additonal ideas.

http://world.std.com/~enjolras/symtreat.htm

Let us know how you make out

Vickie

[aquak]

Thank you for your replies. The kulis only go part way up most of the time and have always come out during the day for feedings, more so since I started feeding sinking tablets. I just changed the filter and do regular water changes + bottom cleaning. I watched last night when the light went out and they continued their swimming. Only two of the three seem to be troubled. Right now (mid-day) they are all hiding, normal for this time of day. None of the other fish seem to be bothered. The clown loach goes through long times (weeks) of hiding even during feeding times but I suspect he is finding his own food -- such as snails or snail eggs -- during those times. Some of my books say loaches need hard alkaline water and cannot tolerate soft acid water and others say the opposite. Once when the clown was in hiding the water ph tested high and when I lowered it he came out again, but that doesn't always work. Thanks for all suggestions. k

[pdelucia]

This might be out of left field, but, do you have any place in the tank for the kuli loaches to hide? I've put kuli loaches in my tank before, infact I have one now. When I first introduced them to the tank they did as you described, but once they found a place to hide - in a plant or a rock - they were ok...

I hope this helps,
Peter.

[aquak]

Yes, they have lots of hiding places. When I first got them they hid a lot and then were out quite a bit and then started swimming up and down the sides of the tank. Two otocinclus have died. The kulis are alive but still acting a little strangely and seem to wear themselves out. They sometimes land on a plant branch and just hang there, usually briefly.

[vjvl51]

Aquak, I'm going to ask Alf to cast his experienced eye on this thread. He may see something that I'm missing.

Vickie

[Alf]

kuli loach, I can not find any info on this fish under this name. Is it one of these?

(Botia macracantha)
(Pangio semicinctus)
(Botia lohachata)

"AKA"
Clown Loach
Half-Banded Loach
Yo Yo Loach

But I still say you have a stress problem. What is your Alk like ?Loaches like a DKH of 8 to 9

[vjvl51]

Alf

According to Baensch Aquarium Atlas Vol 1, a kuli (or Coolie) Loach is a Pangio Kuhlii (page 364). "A soft tank bottom covered with sand or gravel with loam or peat. Prefers plenty of vegetation such as pinnate plants and hiding room between roots, stones or tank decorations. Recommend subdued light, either through the use of floating plants or via reduced lighting. Use soft, slightly acid warm water (about a pH of 6.0)."

I've kept Coolies in my tank (pH of 7.2 to 7.6) with regular aquarium sand (between 3 to 4 inches) with plants - no peat at that time - but I did have a couple of wood pieces. At that time, they were part of my clean-up crew in my African cichlid tank. My water is extremely hard (over 25 dGH).

Hope this helps you and thanks for looking at this.

Vickie

[Alf]

Thanks Vickie,

Exactly what I needed. Now I know what fish we are talking about. I will need to take a look at some of my research site's I'll see what I can come up with.

[aquak]

The problelm seems to be more general because the loaches are only the most obviously stressed. 2 of my 3 otocinclus have died and I have given up on cory cats. I have one very healthy clown loach but the others I've gotten have all died. I have a rather coarse, small gravel bottom and plenty of hiding places, including a large piece of wood and slate terraces. Another topic is my angels. I have one that has laid eggs a few weeks ago and seems to be full of them now -- very swollen -- but two others seem to be arguing over her and she isn't laying, just cleaning a leaf. A pet store owner saw them and thinks only one is male but she had apparently mated with one of the "females" when she laid her eggs last time. So now I am confused and know I need a bigger tank, but have to wait till I move in a month or so. I would like to fix the stress and dying problem before then. Thanks for all the help!

[vjvl51]

Aquak

If you can, give us the readings for the following. I know that you said they were OK, but right now we're looking at everything and anything for you.

pH (I think you said was 7.2)
ammonia
nitrite
chlorine
hardness
temp
type of filter
real plants or fake
when was the last partial water change
type of lights
how long are the lights on
any light from a window?

Thanks

Vickie

[aquak]

ph -- 7.2 ammonia -- 0 nitrite -- 0 chlorine -- 0
hardness -- I don't have a test for this but a pet store tested it a while ago and said it was OK.
temp -- 75 F filter -- bio-wheel real plants
partial water change about 10 days ago (They seem to do better without the frequent changes that I was doing.)
light -- full spectrum on from ~7 am - 9 pm some light from a window to the side that now has a shade over it most of the time but didn't until a week or so ago. I have left the light on all night when the angels laid their eggs because they just kept eating them when the lights went out and laying more the next day. I left them on last night to see if she would lay eggs but she didn't. She looks very swollen. But I doubt the light is the problem. The fish can all get into dark places if they want to.

[vjvl51]

Thanks Aquak

Everything looks to be where I would expect it considering your comments. Nothing appears to be borderline or out of spec. I'm still hoping Alf can spot something.

As for the angels. Mine are medium sized (just growing them out), so I haven't had breeding problems. I have read that angels will eat their first few batches of eggs. Some people say that they seem to need a few "practice" runs before they let some hatch. Other people say that the parenting skills have been bred out of today's angels. I'm not sure that it is possible to "bred out" an instinct, but pass the info on for what it's worth. If you had an extra tank, you could possibly remove the eggs and allow them to hatch away from the parents. I'll look up the info on that, if you wish.

Vickie

[Alf]

Ok! I have no exp. With this particular fish. So I called In the best on the site. Dave! So when he gets a chance I'm sure he will chime in here.

[AquariumPro]

http://www.aquariumpros.com/images/forums/kloach.jpg

The very first question I have to ask, is: Are the loaches eating? Stressed fish rarely eat. I have been keeping Kuhlie Loaches for many years, they're one of my favorites. Mine have always done the up and down thing in the corner of the tank, not because they were stressed, but in fact, because they were not stressed. When they stress, they hide, which is very typical when they're new. Once they feel comfortable, they tend to get quite active, especially at dusk and dawn. If they are doing this continuously, that could be a sign of stress, and I see several factors that could cause this.

Also, when barometric pressure drops, many species of loaches get much more active. Almost all the true loaches respond to barometric pressure changes. The most famous is the so-called Chinese Weather Loach.

If your loaches eat well (frozen or freeze-dried tubifex are a favorite), I would not be concerned at all. I use a ceramic dish sunk into the gravel, into which I gently squirt defrosted frozen foods with a Turkey baster. This gives the squirmy guys a place to feed without getting tons of food in the gravel.

If they are not eating, then we have to look at oxygen depletion, which is unlikely unless the tank has a heavy fish load. The other question I would ask, given the way they are reacting to water changes, is do you treat new water with a good water conditioner that neutralizes both chlorine and chloramine? The tap water may contain both, as chloramine is often used by water treatment plants in the Spring and Fall, and the fish may be reacting to nasties in the water.

Also, you need to ease off on the lights a bit. Loaches don't like too much light and if you don't have some mud on the bottom for them to burrow into as they would in the wild, you should limit the light a bit more to say ten hours a day. Loaches will try to burrow into the gravel if the lights are on too long, and in doing so, injure themselves on the sharper gravel. If you don't already have something like it, make a shallow cave for them to hide under. They won't like tall caves, they need something low that they can squeeze under.

FYI: Young Angelfish parents often eat their first batches of eggs. This is not unusual for them at all. Same goes for Discus. The key to getting them to not eat their eggs is not to keep them in with any other fish, and leave them alone. The more you peek in on them when they breed, the more they'll eat their eggs.

[aquak]

Thank you for your reply. I think they are stressed when they swim up and down because they seem to wear themselves out. After the 2 otos died I was concerned that the water changes were causing the problem so I stopped doing them and things settled down. The kulis stopped doing the swimming thing and came out to eat and swam on the bottom some and hid in dark tight areas between slate terrace stones just as they used to. I then gave about 9 or 10 gallons of water to another tank (so I didn't stir up the bottom at all) and put in fresh. It is well water so does not have any chlorine at all. I didn't lower the ph with sodium biphosphate because it stayed at around 7.4 and I wanted to see if maybe that is a factor. One or two of the kulis started swimming up and down again but not as badly and they seem to have settled down now. I think I'm going to get my water somewhere else until I move. Would sulphur have anything to do with it? They do sometimes go head down, tail up in the gravel, not a lot, though, and it usually seems as if they are eating when they do that -- digging for food. They didn't seem to be eating much when they were swimming up and down but otherwise do.
Also, this was the second batch of eggs eaten by the angels. I am going to separate them when I move and can get a larger tank. Can cory cats or other bottom feeders or otos (for algae eating) be kept in the breeding tank? Thanks for your help!

[vjvl51]

Fish don't like sulphur any more than you or I. An easy fix, would be to get a filter for your water. I use a GE SmartWater GXWH08C. This cost me about $80 Canadian (probably about $50 US) and the cartridge that comes with it filters out sand, soil, silt, sediment and rust. You can get a charcoal cartridge for taste and smell, as well. This filters all of our water but some people only use it for their fish water. I realize you are planning on moving but this might be easier than trying to get your water from another source. It could also be something that you can take with you when you move.

Most bottom feeders will eat any fish eggs that they can find. Otos might be alright since they are mainly an algae eater. I've heard that people have had good luck with snails. They tell me that the snail will only eat dead eggs. You would only want one snail in your breeder tank.


Vickie

[aquak]

I am not sure what you mean by fish not liking sulphur. It doesn't hurt us to drink it and my animals all don't seem to mind it. I drink it and only notice when I've been out of town for a while. But anyway, I'll just leave the water out before using it so all the gases can be gone. Thanks for the info on angel breeding and all the help!:) :)