55 is becoming a problem

[crazyred]

Well, I'm having a little trouble gettin this tank off the ground and I'm stumped. I bought 6 rummynose tetras and 6 cardnal tetras and within 48 hours I was down to two rummynoses and 1 cardinal. :( I have since decided that these are not the fish for me no matter how pretty I think they are. I'm going to stick with some hardier tetra species like the blues and maybe head & taillights or green fire.

Then, for some still yet unkown reason, I lost one of my angelfish this weekend. I noticed right after my water change that she (he?) was acting strange and it only took a couple of hours for it to die. :CY I do not know, for the life of me, what went wrong. My water params were well within normal (amm: 0, nite: 0, nate: 0.) The water going in was just the same as the tank water. I have no idea what took my little angel other than there was some redness in it's nose and gill area. :confused: Everything else is fine....including the remaining angels, cardinal, rummynoses, and rams. It's a mystery.

I'm so bummed!!!!

[AngelMom]

Red, there was probably something wrong with your angel. I've seen the red nose/gills thing before and it seems that some of them either develop a sensitivity to additives (simple stuff like ferts that shouldn't matter) or have this show up when they are stressed. Not sure what causes it, but since yours are still little I suspect that it just wasn't strong enough to deal with it. Sorry you lost one, but I'm sure it had nothing to do with anything you did. Sometimes I wish animals could talk....it would make things so much easier!

[crazyred]

Thanks Mom. I worried that maybe i didn't add enough dechlor to the tank, but I would think that the remaining tetras and rams would have shown this first, but they're fine.

Yeah, this is worse than having a newborn.....you just have to guess.....I'm not a good guesser. The other fish are still good, hopefully, it was an isolated case. :(

[crazyred]

Well, I seem to be having a major tank disaster of unknown cause because when I went home for lunch I had lost my male ram and I have another angelfish that isn't looking too hot. I still have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, but I performed a small emergency water change in case there's something in there that I can't test for. This totally sucks. I've spent a small fortune on fish lately and I'm losing them one by one. Now, my female ram is alone and I fear that one of my favorite angelfish (the little koi) will be dead when I get home at 5:00. :( I'm beyond sad, and I don't know how I'm going to get through the next 4 hours of work.

I just don't understand what it could be. Two days ago my fish were fine, active, swimming, eating and now, they're all dying one by one......except the platies. :rolleyes: There are sometimes I just hate fishkeeping. I guees it's going to be a while before I try to put any fish back into this tank, and I may have to abadon my drem of a lovely SA set-up. I can't take this.

[Sofia]

Oh I am so sorry and I know this is no consolation but I know exactly how you feel - been through it myself but if I know you just from reading your posts here I know you will never give up - you don't seem to be that type of person. I hope everything works out for you!

[AngelMom]

I'm sorry you're having problems hon. I'm sure it's not you.....we just have no way to check the pedigree of fish unless we get them directly from the breeders. The LFS usually have a distributor that they buy from, so even the LFS doesn't know sometimes.

I know it's hearetbreaking and you feel totally helpless, but sometimes the fish we get just aren't hardy enough, were sick already, or have problems from too much in-breeding that we just can't know about.

Does your shop have any type of guarantee on their fish? Sometimes, (and especially if they have problems with a batch) you can get replacements. I know that sounds a bit callous for critters we regard as family members, but the business side is there.

[[[HUGZ}}}

[crazyred]

The angels at this particular store come from a local breeder (amazingly enough), but that doesn't mean that they didn't get anything from the fish that they were in the tank with at the store. Unfourtunately, I've had the fish too long to get any credit or refund. I've had the angels for a little over two weeks (19 days to be exact) and the rams have been in there for 12 days.

Sad day in fishdome.....I think I'll go ahead and feed anti-parasite meds and garlic to remaining fish as a precaution. Couldn't hurt. :(

[oscarbartoni]

How long had the store had the fish in before you bought them? If you got them shortly after they got them in then the fish were stressed pretty much and then to put them in still another tank might have pushed them over the cliff so to speak. You should try to make sure that the fish store has the fish in for a few days to make sure that the batch looks healthy before you buy from that batch. I know that you might not get the one(s) that you want that way you probably will not wind up with dead fish as easily that way either.

[crazyred]

Yeah, no way to know, and around here....if you wait too long to get fish you won't get them. I can't wait a week.....I guess I'll just never have the fish I want.

Angel #2 died between lunch and home. Angel #3 isn't looking good and the female ram looks bad too. I might as well have just never bought any of these fish in the first place. I wasted nearly $100. I'm not putting a single new fish in this tank again. I guess this will be my dedcated platy tank...they're the only fish that look like they might survive this disaster....I haven't lost one yet. YAY, platies.

This is worse than the tragedies I had when I started my 29....I just can't believe this is happening.

[lloyd berg]

guess you aren't interested in adding any salt, eh?? :rolleyes: sorry to hear your in that 'time' of fishkeeping, red. it's just 2 steps back for a good run at your next try. ;) good luck for then.

[AngelMom]

Hon, to have that many fish go so fast, I'd be real suspiscious of the LFS......seems to me you had this problem the last time? Was it the same LFS? Do you know how they care for the fish? As many lessons as you've learned in the past couple of years, and as careful as I know you are, I'm sure it isn't you.....unless your water has some weird gunk it in that can't be tested for (which I doubt - they couldn't supply it as drinking water then). :(

[crazyred]

This is a different fish store than before, but I got my 3 blue platies there a while back and they are all still healthy as horses.....I guess that's platies for ya though. The LFS said that these angels are bred locally, but they could have picked something up at the LFS I guess.

Angel 2 is looking better right now. I did two things, I disconnected my DIY CO2 set-up (no indication really that this was the problem....pH and kH are normal) and I performed a fairly large water change. I don't think there ANY hope whatsover for my sweet lady ram.....she's at the top gasping. I guess I should euthanize her, but I've had such a hard day already....I guess I keep hoping against all hope that she will pull out of it, but I think I'm delusional.

Like I've said before, I hate to pay for shipping on fish, but I guess I have no choice....if I want pretty, healthy rams, angels, and tetras.....they're not down here. This sucks.

[CrazieEddie]

What's your level of CO2 that you keep in that tank? I'm wondering if they might have died from too much CO2.

[crazyred]

I wondered about that as well. Based on the CO2 charts I've seen, given my pH and kH, my CO2 level figured to about 20 ppm.....shouldn't have affected them, but I'm taking no more chances. I have disconnected it.

I euthanized my female ram last night....I couldn't stand watching her struggle. The last two angels look pretty good for now, but I'm nervous. The last 2 rummies and the last cardinal still look okay, and the platies haven't been affected at all (wow, what do you know about that).

There either had to be something bad in the tank that I can't ID (with 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and less than 5 ppm nitrates what else is there?), or there was some disease that killed very quickly with no real symptoms. Either way, it's going to be as least 2-3 months before I'm going to try to put anything else back in there, and I'm only going to order from Aquabid. Period. No LFS this time.....I can't trust it.

Oh well, back to the drawing board. RIP my sweet, beautiful fishies. :(

[AngelMom]

I don't have any personal experience with the Rummynose, but around here, Cardinals are VERY touchy. Basically, if you want a school of ten, buy twenty (even my LFS admits to a 50% loss from the distributor)......sucks, but sometimes it is what it is.

[crshadow]

Oh no! I'm really sorry to hear this! I was really hoping that the rest of your fish would be okay. :(

Don't get discouraged! I know its disappointing to have a setback like this in a project you've been working at for so long, but just don't let it get you down. You've probably done way more to ensure the health of these fish than many others would have. :TU :TU Sometimes, we simply lose fish despite our best efforts.

That being said, I still wish we could figure out the cause so that you can rest easy... All your water parameters seem fine. I still wonder about the CO2, but 20ppm is not that high... The pH KH chart can be invalidated by non carbonate based buffers, but I doubt that would be the case in your situation. I have killed fish with accidental CO2 overdoses and the symptoms they show are gasping at the surface, laying on the bottom, darting around. Different types of fish exhibit different symptoms. I've been able to save them if I catch it in time, but even then sometimes some are just too far gone, and may have brain damage.... Did you by chance recently start a new batch of DIY yeast CO2? You will generally get a spike of CO2 at first with DIY and then it will level off for a while. Maybe you had temporarily high CO2 levels? Again it's doubtful that DIY CO2 could do this, but you never know... High water temperature can also result in low oxygen levels, combine that with a possible high level of CO2 and you could have suffocating fish.... I dunno I'm just grasping at straws here. It just bugs me not knowing for sure! :confused:

Other than that, since all your parameters are fine, my only other thoughts are something else getting in the water. Bugspray? Air freshener? I suppose disease is still a possibility, but it seems wierd that it progresses so quickly without more obvious outward signs...

Anyway don't give up! :)

-Jeremiah

[crazyred]

I first mixed the Red Sea Turbo system on Memeorial day (May 29) it is designed for a 40 gallon tank and comes with an electric, Venturi pump to distribute the CO2. Upon some advice I received, I spliced in another CO2 generator...the Hagen Nutrafin system, into the same tubing as the Red Sea system to take advantage of the diffuser. I mixed it two weeks later on June 10 or 11. The rummies and cards were added on June 14, and by today, June 19, I'm down all these fish.

It very well could have been a CO2 spike. I'm am so not counting that out. One of my two angles (one I was very worried about) that I had left yesterday after finding my koi angel dead, has started looking better. I think it was too late for the ram. I did do a huge water change after I disconnected the CO2 system to get as much residual CO2 out of there as possible. I did spray some air freshner in the room from time to time, but not much and the tank is fairly well covered, but who knows.....not going to do that again either.

My plants might start looking poorly without any CO2, but hopefully, my fish won't be dying anymore. I still feel like it's touch and go right now though.....I know I'll feel that way until it's been months since my last unexplained fish death.

I know that nothing will make me feel better about any of this, but I'd at least like to know what went wrong so I can avoid doing it in the future. My suspects to date are these: unidentified, fast killing, symptomless (until death) disease, CO2 poisoning, unidentifiable toxin poisoning (not likely since I still have 2 rummynoses and a cardinal not affected).

This is just so pitiful. I've never had a disaster of this magnitude that I could NOT explain. Frustrating. :HS

[oscarbartoni]

If the angelfish come from a local breeder try and talk to the breeder or even if possible go over to the bereeder and discuss the problem with him/her. They might be using soft and acidic water for the hatchery and then the trip to the store into harder water with a higher pH might have been too much for the angelfish to endure. The anglefish breeder should be able to give you some tips on how to care for them and maybe you can even buy some from him/her.
As far as spraying anything in the room even flea sprays, you must unplup the air pumps for a while so that the pumps so do not pump in the sprays to the tank. I have heard many times that people would comer up a tank but not unpplug the air pump but the fish would die because of the air pump pumping poison into the tank.

[Buddha_Red]

i also throw a "dedicated" tarp over the tank after turning off the filters and air pumps. Better safe than sorry. i picked up a tarp from the 99 cent store. This makes sure no chemical rests on the outside of the tank. Its easy to introduce chemicals into an aquarium by contact with the outside.

HTH

PS EDIT

I rinse the tarp every time i use it. I clean every inch of the tarp with water. I also mark the side that rests on the tank. The sides is rinsed three times extremely well no matter what side it is. This is just safety, you wont be spraying the tarp, but i am a freak about chemical poisoning. (used to be an exterminator, I'm licensed to handle chemicals)

[betaboi]

Wow, i certainly have missed a lot in a few days! Sorry about your rams, also cardinal tetras are known to be more difficult to acclimate to a new tank so it's not like it's your fault. CO2 is defiently not something you want to mess with. Could you tell us what your oxygen levels are in your tank? Then we can come to a better idea to why your fish may have died. If there was nearly the same amount of oxygen or less than there is CO2 then i wouldn't be surprised that they suffocated. Make sure you've got a working CO2 regulator as well (as a precaution) that will cut out the CO2 injection when your levels get above what you'd like. Set it opposite in the tank to where the CO2 is injected. HTH and Good Luck! Try to find a ratio that specifies what levels of oxygen versus CO2 would be considered healthy.

EDIT:
Is your injection at the surface or pointed at the gravel? If it's at the gravel then your creating an oxygen free or low-oxygen environment which could provide a nice area for anaerobic bacteria to live...

[crshadow]

How's everything been the last few days? Have your deaths stopped? Your plants should be fine for a little while without CO2, while you get things figured out. Don't let this scare you away from CO2, just use it cautiously when you're ready to try it again.

Anyway, I hope you are doing better.

Take care,

Jeremiah

[crazyred]

Jeremiah, yeah, everything has settled down. so far, I'm left with two angels, all the platies, 2 rummynose and 1 cardinal tetra.....they (tetras) all hang together. I'm still worried about one of the remaining angles, I think it might be dain bramaged.....only time will tell. I am leaning toward a CO2 OD as being the culprit. I'll probably just leave it off for a while and then only put one bottle back on. I think the bottles got shaken and produced a CO2 spike. :eek: I'll just be more careful about it in the future.

Sorry, I missed you post Joey:

Wow, i certainly have missed a lot in a few days! Sorry about your rams, also cardinal tetras are known to be more difficult to acclimate to a new tank so it's not like it's your fault. CO2 is defiently not something you want to mess with. Could you tell us what your oxygen levels are in your tank? Then we can come to a better idea to why your fish may have died. If there was nearly the same amount of oxygen or less than there is CO2 then i wouldn't be surprised that they suffocated. Make sure you've got a working CO2 regulator as well (as a precaution) that will cut out the CO2 injection when your levels get above what you'd like. Set it opposite in the tank to where the CO2 is injected. HTH and Good Luck! Try to find a ratio that specifies what levels of oxygen versus CO2 would be considered healthy.

EDIT:
Is your injection at the surface or pointed at the gravel? If it's at the gravel then your creating an oxygen free or low-oxygen environment which could provide a nice area for anaerobic bacteria to live...

The Venturi diffuser was an inch above the gravel just as instructed. I has two system spliced toegether to take advantage of the electric diffuser and I think the bottles got shaken up and that would have caused a dangerous CO2 spike (I think). I had no way to tell what my CO2 level was at that moment, but if any fish were seimming near by they certainly would have got hit and this seems to make sense 'cause I lost two angels and the rams, and I think I saw them near that out put before.

[obet_07304]

Red, did your tank ever became cloudy? During the CO2 dosing. Because mine became very cloudy after i shake the bottle because i wasn't getting enough CO2. But everbody acted normal and ate w/ gusto. And to my surprise the next day my tank is all clear w/o doing a waterchange. Im really amazed. IMO you should use just the Turbo CO2 if your not heavily planted i think that might suffice. Thats what im hoping for in my tank. What other ferts do u use beside the CO2, red?

[crazyred]

No, my tank never got cloudy....it was weird....the water params didn't change either.....that I could tell by testing.

I'm pretty heavily planted, but the main reason I used both systems is because the Red Sea system is only rated ofr 40 gallons and my tank is 55. Also, even though it says it stays active for a month, I've heard that DIY CO2 loses strenght after two weeks. I waited two weeks after installing the Red Sea system to hook up the other system and I was going to leave them together for a while and then re-up the Red Sea system. I am only going to just it from now on.

I also use Flourish and Leaf Zone. With the CO2 I can see that I'm going to have to start dosing nitrates because I can't get it over 5 ppm and my plants will strat to suffer. I'm going to order it from Greg Watson.

[obet_07304]

Red, you heard of Plant- Gro is this better than Leaf Zone?

[crazyred]

Yes, I've heard of it. I don't know if it's better than Leaf Zone or not. I use Leaf Zone for my Amazon sword plants....they need the potassium that LZ provides. I had an Amazon sword in my 29 that had a bunch of pin holes in the leaves, but on the advice of A.Mom and others, I started dosing LZ and the holes went away, I would swear by the stuff.

[obet_07304]

Got to find that stuff, thats the same problem im having w/ my Amazon. Bytheway how is your dilema going? I hope it all works out.

[crazyred]

Everything seems to be okay now, but I'm keeping an eye on my tank for sure. Haven't had any deaths in 5 days. **Keeping fingers crossed** I hope the disaster is over. I'll probably wait a couple of weeks to re-start the CO2. I'll have to order the refills online.

[obet_07304]

If you dont mind me asking Red where do you order the refills, Big Als or Drs Foster Smith?

[crazyred]

I haven't actually ordered one yet. I was going to comparitive price between the two....I was also going to check Ebay. I ordered the system there so they might have refills for it even cheaper than the two sites.

[CrazieEddie]

I saw a thread regarding a person using sugar and Baking soda in the Hagen C02 and claims it works in another forum. I'll try to find the link and post it here.

[CrazieEddie]

I know you had problems with your 55 gal and your DIY CO2 might have been the problem, but if you decide to use your CO2 again, these solutions might work.

I couldn't find the exact link, but here are some I came up with...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/31933-hagen-co2-peeps.html

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/planted-tank-faq/10071-wanted-your-best-hagen-co2-recipes.html

[oscarbartoni]

If you are using Flourish excell they you should not have to use the co2 system because the Flourish excell has the carbon the the plants need. I am using Flourish excell in my tanks and my plants are growing great ( I have to take hands full of water sprite and other plants out every week so taht the light will get to the lower plants. I have just bought some Madagascar lace plants and put them in 3 different tanks to see how the grow.All so far (week 1) seem to be growing well.

[crazyred]

Flourish Excell is only good if you have plants in your tank that can handle it. If there is any Vallisneria species or Anacharis, Excell will melt them like a hot candle. It definitely has limited applications.