asking again

[aquak]

Hello! Is anybody home here? I am referred here from the freshwater aquaria board. I have been losing certain kinds of fish, mostly bottom feeders, but not all, in my tank and wondered about using a UV sterilizer. I went to the LFS and they said they didn't have one small enough for my 30 gal. freshwater tank. I think I have a bacteria or parasite but no other treatments have worked. This would be a last resort if it has a very good chance of working and isn't too costly.


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[Nooboon]

Yes Aquak, i noticed you haven't had a reply yet. I'll PM Dave. He must have missed your post.

[AquariumPro]

Hi There!

Sorry. I took a few days off.

I honestly do not think a UV sterilizer will help here. I have read your profile, and read all of your posts about your tank as well as your answers to other posts. You seem to have a very good instinct regarding fish problems by the way. I agree that Corys should not be used to cycle tanks for example. They and other catfish cannot tolerate ammonia.

The problems you are describing do not sound like they are due to external bacteria or protozoa, or any other external microbe problem, which is what UV sterilizers are used to help eliminate.

UV sterilizers lower the count of microbial life in the water. They have very little effect on internal pathogens, and in your case, I am not even sure that the problem you're having is related to disease at all.

The fact that you are able to do fine with Kuhli Loaches, but not Clown Loaches, Cory Cats or Otocinclus does definitely provide some clues which very well may be realted to diet, but I need some more information before I can diagnose.

Please tell me:

1) Do you feed anything else to bottom feeders other than Shrimp pellets?

2) You mention "multiple treatments." Exactly what have you been treating with?

3) At your LFS, have you ever seen problems in their tanks with the species you are having trouble keeping? IE: Do you see dead Corys, Clown Loaches or Otocinclus in the store's aquariums?

4) You have Gouramis which are "accessory air" breathers. Have you seen them sucking air at the surface more frequently than every fifteen minutes?

5) This one's important. How long on average do these species live in your tank?

[AquariumPro]

Sorry aquak!

I just realized I had missed A LOT of your other posts, so now I have a better understanding of your problem. Please let me know if you have treated with anything other than Spectrogram.

I am almost certain I know what the problem is here, as I caught it by relating two different threads you started along with another post to someone else's post.

You have a low O2 problem near or at your gravel, I am almost certain of it. The problem is due to CO2 created by the decaying peat in your gravel bed, combined with the sulphur in your tap water. I think you can eliminate this problem by pre-filtering your tap water before using it in your tank, and by gently aerating the water with an airstone.

While sulfur will not usually harm most fish, it can form complex suplhur dioxide compounds in the presence of high CO2 levels. These precipitate into solids that will settle into the gravel where they are metabolized by anaerobes that can create toxins as a by-product.

If at all possible, I would recommend you consider at least a bare-bones RO system for pre-treating the water. If that is too expensive a solution (our prices are good but you may want to check EBay), then try the following method I used to use about 35 years ago when Chicago was using sulphur to treat water for algae problems we were having in Lake Michigan. Filter the water with carbon for 24 hours before use, then allow it to stand (without movement) for another 24 hours. Then siphon off the top half of the water and only use that water for your tank. You may notice solid material in the bottom of the container. That is what you want to avoid.

I will wait for your other answers before making a final comment, as some of the information I requested may change my mind on the cause of this problem.

You should also know that all 3 species you are having problems with are VERY sensitive to dissolved metals in the water, whereas for some reason, Kuhli Locahes do not seem to be as bothered by this.

[aquak]

Thank you for your reply. I think maybe we are getting somewhere now, except that otos don't hang on the bottom. . . . But to answer your questions:

1)The bottom feeders always get some of whatever I feed the other fish: Sera GVG-mix (mostly), tubifex worms (usually dry but sometimes live), and the pellets. (When I was a child I had cory cats that lived on the Tetra flakes I fed everyone else and they were the all-time survivors in the tank that never had water tests or changes done to it. They seem to have gotten more sensitive in the meantime.)

2) I've treated with the Spectogram, another similar antibiotic that starts with a K, Maracyn-Two, and, most recently, MelaFix, an antibacterial that has Tea Tree oil in it.

3) The store I go to is rather far away but I go there because of the high quality of their fish and service. I have seen tanks that were off limits because the fish were sick but they all looked good anyway. I haven't seen any bottom feeders quarantined except for the clown loaches. The owner was about to sell me some and looked closely and said he wasn't sure there wasn't a bit of ick and so wouldn't sell them. All the other fish I have bought there have been long-time survivors except the guppies, but even they live for a while. I have never seen a dead fish in any of their tanks.

4) On another thread Vickie was telling someone that gouramis occupy the middle and upper levels of the tank. I have had only one for a long time now and he never goes to the top, with rare exceptions when he goes for food. He mostly hangs at the bottom and sometimes midway. I know they are like the betas, but both of mine stayed low in the tank. Some of the cory cats would go to the top sometimes, but not constantly.

5) The longest lasting was one of my clown loaches. He was with me for over 6 months, maybe close to a year, and went through the move, ending up on the floor once unnoticed for a while and briefly another time and survived long after that and then suddenly died one day with no apparent symptoms. The others only lasted a short time. The cory cats would last anywhere from a month to several months. The otos about the same, but some a little longer. I can't say exactly. I guess I should keep records.

I now have less fish in my tank. One angel died, the other lives next door. So, the remaining pair has eggs now. I also have the one gourami, two siamese algae eaters that were supposed to eat the thread algae but don't, 2 mollies that were supposed to do the same and don't, a pair of guppies, 2 Bolivian rams, and probably all 6 kuhli loaches, 3 large, 3 small. I don't think the peat has anything to do with it because it is a relatively new addition.

I was going to clean the tank this weekend but don't want to disturb the angels just in case the eggs hatch.

When I change the water I do about 10 gallons. It would be difficult for me to find a space to let the water be aerated, but just sitting out would be possible. I would rather put in a larger filter than add an airstone that needs a pump that I don't have anyplace to put. Would these changes be likely to help? I think the metal idea is more likely than the air anyway because of the otocinclus being victims. I'm not sure what to do about that. I have lots of plants besides the unwelcome algae and a full spectrum light + wood and slate.

BTW, I accidentally cycled my tank, (after I thought I had cycled it with guppies) with a cory and my angels and they all survived the ammonia and nitrate spike that I didn't even know I was having until I took some water to the LFS. (I lost a clown loach or two, but the original survived that as well.) I now check it myself.

So, thanks again. I'll be interested in what you think of all this.

[aquak]

It probably doesn't matter, but I also have 4 neons, down from the original 6 that came from my friends' tank about a month ago. Each of the 2 that died looked pale and cloudy beforehand.

[aquak]

One more thing, that I did mention on another post: When I do a water change the kuhli loaches start swimming actively up and down the sides of the tank. This doesn't last long except the time that I kept changing it thinking to thus eradicate the problem because I read somewhere that they are good indicators of water quality and something is wrong if they do that. Also, my neighbors have a tank and share the well but don't have the same kinds of fish except they recently got some cory cats that we are watching to see how they do. They also have a goldfish in with the tropicals which is another wild card but they do not want to take it out. They gave me the neons it was eating. I gave them my angel that was being attacked. . . . (I wish someone would tell me how to edit my posts so I can add to or change them when I remember something after I've posted and before anyone answers.)

[Nooboon]

Hi Aquak.

It looks like you might finally be getting somewhere with this problem. Fingers crossed.

To edit your posts simply click the "edit" button at the bottom of your post down where the "profile", "PM" etc buttons are. Simple as that.

[AquariumPro]

Hi Aquak:

I actually went back to some textbooks on aquaculture. You absolutely must eliminate sulfur as a possibility before looking at any other possible causes. Every resource I have checked says that sulfur in tapwater is from hydrogen sulfide or sulfite created by bacteria in wells. It is toxic to fish in high enough quantities, and different species of fish can tolerate less or more of it.

Here is a direct quotation from one source:

"In some areas, well water may also contain significant quantities of this gas, recognized by its characteristic rotten egg smell. Hydrogen sulfide is toxic to fish and interferes with normal respiration. Toxicity is increased at higher temperatures and a pH less than 8 when the largest percentage of hydrogen sulfide is in the toxic un-ionized form. Vigorous aeration or splashing is usually sufficient to remove hydrogen sulfide from well water."

Here is another quotation:

"Strong, rotten-egg odors in the raw water is usually the result of the decomposition of decaying underground organic deposits. As water is drawn to the surface, hydrogen sulfide gas can be released to the atmosphere. In strong concentrations, this gas is flammable and poisonous. It rapidly tarnishes silver, turning it black. It is toxic to aquarium fish in sufficient quantities. "

I would highly recommend aerating water thoroughly before use, and then filtering it with activated carbon. However, even that will not work half as good as using RO or distilled water for the tank. Until you eliminate the possibility of this being caused by excess sulfur, you are only going to keep guessing. Every aquarist I know that has been plagued with sulphur in well water has solved many problems they thought were being caused by something else after they switched to filtered water for their aquariums.

Evan a Brita filter would be better than nothing!

[aquak]

Thank you for all the info! I still wonder how the neighbor's tank that has the same water doesn't have the same problem. They do have an airstone. But, my gourami hangs at the bottom and I never see him at the top! And the otos didn't. AND -- my angel eggs are hatching right now. I am not sure what to do to keep the fry safe. They are in a community tank. Anyway, I will probably purchase a small tank and airstone + pump tomorrow for the fry. I will put it in the big tank after I finish using it in the small one. They've never gotten this far before so I am rather unprepared but think I have a day at least to get them their own tank. The parents are doing a super job and I don't know if I should move them with the fry or if that would disturb them too much. I was also thinking of moving the other fish in the tank and leaving the parents and possibly smaller fish, but that might be too disruptive as well. What is a Brita filter? Thank you!

[AquariumPro]

Hi aquak:

A Brita filter is a filter you can buy at almost any Home Depot, Wal Mart or other department and hardware stores that hooks up to your faucet and purifies and aerates the water. They are rather simple devices and do not remove everything, but they will remove sulfur. They use cartridges which can be replaced as needed.

As stated, no two fish are alike anymore than two humans are alike. Therefore, different species, and two of the same species with different genetic makeup are going to react differently to the same condition. Your neighbor may also be using a different filter after their well pump that removes more impurities.

To breed Angels effectively, the pair should have their own very well-established tank, and Angels often make good parents. Angel fry feed on infusoria. There are a number of posts regarding infusoria, and I believe we also have a FAQ or two in our FAQ Section (http://www.aquariumpros.com/faqs/) .

[aquak]

Thank you! I got sidetracked with the angel fry. I'm going to try to grow the infusoria, but I forgot about it and hope I have some in time. Meanwhile, I asked for alternatives at the other site. I have a small pump that I am going to use with an airstone in the large tank when I'm through trying to grow the fry. I'll let you know if that helps, but I probably won't try to put any of the fragile fish in for a while. Thanks again. PS Why am I listed as aquarium pro?

[AquariumPro]

Hi aquak:

your title in the boards is based on the number of posts you've made. You have posted quite a bit, so now you have the highest title. The only higher title is "moderator."

[aquak]

Hmm, maybe someone should change that, since I am far from being a "pro" and it is misleading. BTW, my fry are schooling now and seem to be eating very finely ground color bits food. (They look as if they're eating something and their stomachs seem to have something in them.) I also have java moss in there and have just started a jug for infusoria. I thought maybe a few would survive but there's a lot in there! I hope they're all eating something. Thanks again for all your help!

[aquak]

OK, now I have another equipment question. I bought a Rena Air 50 air pump to use with the fry and planned to use it later in the 30 gal. tank. I lost two more fish this week, a guppy and a molly, and so decided to get a larger, and I hoped quieter, pump to use for both purposes. The salesperson recommended an Elite 803. The box said it's "silent" and has a "noise deadening cover." It's even noisier. Is there such a thing as a REALLY quiet pump? I know they have them on water fountains but can't seem to find one in a fish store. Otherwise, can I do what worked for me years ago with livebearers and cory cats in a ten gallon: turn it off while I'm sleeping or sitting in the same room? I need quiet around me and don't know the solution to having more air in my tank without having too much noise. I've tried putting it on cloth, but it's still very noisy and we're used to having a quiet house.

[Nooboon]

I agree Aquak, in my experience those Elite pumps are quite noisy and also tend to wear out pretty fast.

Rest assured quiet pumps do exist, I had a medium sized pump, called a Silent-flo I think it was, for about 10 years that was nice and quiet. It also had a dial which enabled you to adjust the output so if you were in the same room or going to sleep, you could turn it down if it was slightly irritating.

I'm sure Dave will know of a brand to suit you.

[AquariumPro]

Hi:

Almost all diaphragm air pumps make some noise, so "completely" silent may not be a realistic goal. However, many are much quieter than others. I personally favor the Rena air pumps or the Tetra DeepWater series, but even TetraTec air pumps will be quieter than the Optima, which are a fairly low-end air pump.

PS: Please start new threads when you change topics. No big deal but it will help others who might have the same questions in the future in the search for answers

:D